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Q.-I want to know the check for balancing the pawnbrokers account. Do you get a list from the Colonial Secretary's Office?
A.-Yes.
Q.-So that in each case you can have a balance of the book?
A. Yes, the pawnbrokers licences are payable yearly; the spirit licences are payable monthly, $10.
Q.-If all these books were balanced that would be a sufficient check against fraud?
A.-Yes, of course the totals of the licences book must correspond with the totals in the ledger.
Q.-And you think that if the books had all been balanced regularly that fraud would have been impossible?
A.-I should think so.
The Chairman.-But it would not have prevented the fraud during the course of the year?
A.-No.
Mr. Thurburn.-It would be sure to be found out in a short time.
The Chairman.-When there was no regular Treasurer, did not you think that you had complete control over the clerks?
A.-I should think so.
Q.-Yet had you no knowledge that Alves was receiving money every day?
A.-No.
Mr. Thurburn.-Was it not your duty to see that the books were balanced? It usually is the duty of the head of an office.
A.-I always went after them to balance as soon as possible but they always gave some excuse. I could see that my own book was balanced immediately after the month.
Q.-You had authority over the other clerks?
A.-I had.
Q.-Was it not your duty as head of the office to insist upon the books being balanced?
A.-The auditor was supposed to look after that.
Q.-That is not according to the practice of an ordinary commercial office.
A.-We had no written instruction as to the particular duty of each officer in the department.
The Chairman.-Did you never complain to Mr. Lister that the books were not balanced?
A.-No, but I understood from one of the clerks in the Audit Office that Mr. Freire complained. He reported the fact to Mr. Lister.
Mr. Thurburn.-And what did Mr. Lister do?
A.-I think Mr. Lister told Mr. Freire to mind his own business. That is what Mr. Freire told me.
The Chairman.-You say Ribeiro used to do it sometimes?
A.-In the absence of Ribeiro, Freire would do it. Freire reported to Mr. Lister that the Rent Roll was not balanced.
Mr. Bird.-You never reported it yourself?
A.-No.
Q.-You have known Mr. Alves a long time, I suppose?
A.-Since he joined the Government service.
Q.-You never suspected him?
A.-No.
Q.-You never had any idea that he was speculating heavily, or spending too much money in his private life?
A.-No, I never thought that.
Q.-You never thought that he spent more than he ought to?
A.-No, I was always under the impression that his Kowloon lot would turn out a good concern for him.
Mr. Thurburn.-As regards the money that came in from other departments such as the Magistracy what was the method of receiving it?
A.-That goes to the Bank.
Q.-It goes into your books?
A.-Yes.
Q.-You get a memo?
A.-I get a receipt from the Bank.
Q.-And you did not consider that the Treasury was at all responsible for the accounts being correct--for instance the accounts of the Magistracy?
A.-No, I simply took their statements, and the money was paid into the Bank.
The Chairman.-And you gave the Head of the Department a receipt from the Treasury?
A.-Yes.
Mr. Thurburn produced the balance sheet giving the details of receipts as published in the Gazette and witness explained through which Department the several amounts were received and what were paid direct into the Treasury.
Mr. Thurburn.-The only two large items paid direct into the Treasury are the assessed taxes and Crown Rent?
A.-Yes.
Q.-The other things are all checked by the Departments?
A. Yes. In my opinion if Alves had not had the power to sign the receipt he could not have committed a fraud. He had sole power over the book however, and power to sign the receipt.
Q.-You think it was a mistake of Mr. Lister to make that system?
A.-Yes.
Mr. Bird.-If there were two officers to sign, it would be all right?
A. Yes.
Mr. Thurburn.-Except of course if you signed without checking, and without seeing whether the counterfoil was correct?
A. Yes.
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Page 691
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Q.-I want to know the check for balancing the pawnbrokers account.
a list from the Colonial Secretary's Office?
A.--Yes.
Q.-So that in cach case you can have a balance of the book?
Do you get
A. Yes, the pawnbrokers licences are payable yearly; the spirit licences are payable monthly, $10.
Q.-If all these books were balanced that would be a sufficient check against fraud? A.-Yes, of course the totals of the licences book must correspond with the totals in the ledger.
Q.--Aud you think that if the books had all been balanced regularly that fraud would have been impossible?
A.-I should think so.
The Chairman. But it would not have prevented the fraud during the course of the year?
A.-No.
Mr. Thurburn. It would be sure to be found out in a short time.
The Chairman.When there was no regular Treasurer, did not you think that you had complete control over the clerks?
A.-I should think so.
Q-Yet had you no knowledge that Alves was receiving money every day? A.-No.
Mr. Thurburn.--Was it not your duty to see that the books were balanced?. It usually is the duty of the head of an office.
A-1 always went after them to balance as soon as possible but they always gave some excuse. I could see that my own book was balanced immediately after the month.
Q.-You had authority over the other clerks?
A.-I had.
Q.-Was it not your duty as head of the office to insist upon the books being balanced ?
A.-The auditor was supposed to look after that.
That is not according to the practice of an ordinary commercial office.
A.-We had no written instruction as to the particular duty of each officer in the department.
The Chairman.-Did you never complain to Mr. Lister that the books were not balanced?
A.-No, but I understood from one of the clerks in the Audit Office that Mr. Freire complained. He reported the fact to Mr. Lister.
Mr. Thurburn.--And what did Mr. Lister do?
A.-I think Mr. Lister told Mr. Freire to mind his own business. That is what Mr. Freire told me.
The Chairman.-You say Ribeiro used to do it sometimes?
A.In the absence of Ribeiro, Freire would do it. Freire reported to Mr. Lister that the Rent Roll was not balanced.
Mr. Bird.--You never reported it yourself? A.-No.
Q.--You have known Mr. Alves a long time, I suppose?
A.-Since he joined the Government service.
Q.--You never suspected him?
A.--No.
Q.---You never had any idea that he was speculating heavily, or spending too much money in his private life?
A.--No, I never thought that.
(.-You never thought that he spent more than he ought to?
A.-No, I was always under the impression that his Kowloon lot would turn out a good concern for him.
Mr. Thurburn.—As regards the money that came in from other departments such as the Magistracy what was the method of receiving it?
A.--That goes to the Bank.
Q.--It into
goes your
A.--Yes.
Q-You get a memo?
books?
A.--I get a receipt from the Bank.
Q-And you did not consider that the Treasury was at all responsible for the accounts being correct--for instance the accounts of the Magistracy?
A.--No, I simply took their statements, and the money was paid into the Bauk, The Chairman.And you gave the Head of the Department a receipt from the Treasury?
A.--Yes.
Mr. Thurturn produced the balance sheet giving the details of receipts as published in the Gazette and witness explained through which Department the scneral amounts were received and what were paid direct into the Treasury,
Mr. Thurburn.--The only two large items paid direct into the Treasury are the assessed taxes and Crown Rent?
A.--Yes.
Q-The other things are all checked by the Departments?
A. Yes. In my opinion if Alves had not had the power to sign the receipt he could not have committed a fraud. He had sole power over the book however, and power to sign the receipt.
Q.--You think it was a mistake of Mr. Lister to make that system? A.--Yes.
Mr. Bird. If there were two officers to sign, it would be all right ? A. Yes.
Mr. Thurburn.-Except of course if you signed without checking, and without seeing whether the counterfoil was correct?
A. Yes.
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